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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Fri 21 May 2010, 09:27 
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I just realised that you can make your directional lights make walls cast longer shadows by putting the directional light further from the top left corner at the same angle.

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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Tue 07 Sep 2010, 00:18 
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I can't figure out how to change the textures of the wall in my map.


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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Tue 07 Sep 2010, 06:41 
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Madk, right click and drag upwards in the tile pallete. You should see a red (I think) rectangle highlight a section of of the texture.

Then just left click and paste into the editor and any tiles you paste over will have the new side texture applied to them.

Press P to toggle between perspective and 2D mode.

Also, most of the time when I'm making maps I don't constantly paint directly from the tile pallette. What I do is paint the types of tiles that I want, and then I right click and drag those tiles in the editor, and then left click to copy and paste them. So if I was to make a road for example, I would make a small section of road, and then instead of painting the rest of the road 1 tile at a time, I would simply right click and drag that section of road, and then left click next to it to paste huge chunks of road at a time.

Hope that makes sense :p

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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Tue 07 Sep 2010, 12:05 
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Alright, thanks.

And yeah, I had that bit figured out.


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 Post subject: Re: Stary Birds
PostPosted: Fri 22 Oct 2010, 13:37 
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byeepo125 wrote:
spam crap, best not to quote it since it stays there when someone deletes the posts

~swiss


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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov 2010, 16:04 
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A question about particle effects.. Is there a way to make particles transparent? For example i want to make smoke 50% transparent, so players can see through it. Tried to make less particles - smoke starts to look ugly. :?

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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov 2010, 17:18 
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If you are making your own textures, then just put the transparency in the texture. So far you can't make it transparent in the map editor.

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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Sun 19 Dec 2010, 06:46 
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Can't figure out this part of the side textures. It seems like it is actually 2 different textures in one side of the tile.

The map is BX_Mansion; it's one of the entrances to the building near the Rebel base.


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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Sun 19 Dec 2010, 09:06 
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There is side texture and bottom-side texture.

The one you are asking about is bottom-side texture. Its painted at bottom of the walls. And in game its shown only if "high resolution walls" option is selected.

To select side texture you simply click right-mouse-button on texture you need, or click and drag mouse to select few textures. I guess you already figured that out.

To select bottom-side texture, you need to click middle-mouse-button on texture and drag mouse up or down. When you need to eraze bottom-side texture (actually remove it from the wall, not repaint), then just click middle-mouse-button anywhere on texture (but dont drag mouse), this way none of textures will be selected.

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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Wed 09 Mar 2011, 13:08 
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This is a question about particle zones.
It is possible to make particles trigger when a player enters the zone, but does it differentiate between a normal player and an invisible player?


I'm thinking if it can detect invisible players as well, it might be interesting to use the particle system as a kind of intruder alarm to indicate the presence of an enemy coming.

EDIT:
Is it possible to also use the particle system to trigger lights?

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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Wed 09 Mar 2011, 23:46 
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I haven't tested it but I expect particle zones to trigger even if the player is invisible, definitely worth testing. Cool idea about the intruder alarm!

As far as I know particles zones cannot trigger lights. The only thing that can change lighting is the phase 1/2 dynamic lighting.


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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Wed 09 Mar 2011, 23:56 
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Yeah you can't trigger lights with particle zones. You could kinnnnda fake it in certain situations with a really bright texture that only spawns when you're standing on it, etc.. but it's not a true light.

As for invis, tbh I've forgotten how I coded it. Just have to test it out :D

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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Thu 10 Mar 2011, 02:56 
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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention about the "particle zone intruder detector". I try to avoid using particles in cases where it affects game play because particles can be turned off in the options. For example: someone with a slow computer that has particles turned off would not see/hear the intruder detector and that makes them at a disadvantage.

Maybe Bencelot could add a "Force Particle" option to the editor, so special game play affecting particles cannot be turned off via the options?


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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 07:01 
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Interesting, I put intruder alarms into my map about 3 weeks ago, Decided to check in here for new maps and saw this, I did test it out, Invisibility triggers those alarms.

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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Sat 28 Apr 2012, 15:32 
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I thought I'd just quote out Bencelot's golden advice from Ragnaros' Gangwars map thread because it contains a lot of info that any future mappers should know if they plan to make it an official map along with optimization tips.
bencelot wrote:
Oh yeah, the map has a great feel and I'm not saying to touch that. But I think you could keep that feeling while improving the gameplay. The thing is, you have SOOOO much untapped opporunity here for AMAZING vehicle gameplay. I mean think about it.. you've basically built an entire city on a size and scale that we've never seen before. What makes GTA2 so fun? It's the feeling of zooming all over this city in a super sweet car! This could be Subvein's first ever true GTA2 style map, truely showing off the vehicles and how much fun it is to zoom around in them. However when I played it I was crashing into stuff all the time. There's stuff all over the roads and the roads are only like 6m wide etc, so it's really hard to steer and drift around corners like a boss. But imagine if they were 15m wide how much smoother it'd feel. I wanna hop into a Roadster and go FULL SPEED zooming all over this awesome city of yours, but alas I cannot. Don't get me wrong this map is already very cool and I'm sure will be amazing for Outbreak, Extraction and perhaps even War mode. But I'm just giving some feedback about the insane potential for awesome fun vehicle/Checkpoint/GTA2 style gameplay you have. It's already great, but with vehicle support could be truely amazing :D

On another note there's a technical issue about featuring this map in the official download that you need to consider. I know this is going to be a huge pain in the ass, but IF you want me to include this map in the official download it's going to have to change the texture file back to the default bencelot_01.png file. I know I said I'd include it in our PM but I was at work then and didn't realise that this map required an 8MB texture file to work. I simply cannot justify including this extra 8MB to the official download for a single map, especially when this texture is basically just a copy of the bencelot_01.png texture anyway. If you had a brand new set of textures like swiss01.png without any duplication then I could add it because then the file size wouldn't be as large and it'd add a lot of new stuff, but I just can't officially support your current custom texture. Sorry, but it's just too big and takes up too much space for a game that's meant to be quick to download/install.

However there IS something we can do about this. I've been looking at your texture file and like a lot of the new things you've added, and as you know I have plenty of space in my bencelot_01.png texture. So if you want I can shift a lot of your textures across to the bencelot_01.png file. I'll try keep as many of them as I can in the exact same place so you won't need to redo them when you switch the texture file. There will be some changes needed though.. for example I can see you've replaced the snow tiles with a wall covered in graffiti. This graffiti wall will need to be placed somewhere else in the bencelot_01.png file meaning you'll need to update the tiles in your map that use it. Furthermore there are some tiles in your texture that I just don't want in my bencelot_01.png file, such as the cars, the drawn tank thing and perhaps a few more tiles that are too fuzzy/blurry to be of official quality. Anyway I think I can copy the majority of your textures over and hopefully you won't need to change that many tiles in your actual map.

With a map as large as this though it's still going to be a huge undertaking, so perhaps you don't want to do this at all. I'd understand completely if you'd rather maintain 100% artistic expression and control over the look and feel of your map, in which case you're free to leave it as it is and keep using your custom file. But I'm just letting you know that I'm willing to transfer a lot of your textures across as they look nice anyway and will not only support your glorious city but allow other map makers to use them too :D Anyway have a think about it. Do you want it to be included in the game or do you want complete control over how it looks? Pros and cons to both, and the choice is yours.

Now moving on to making it official. All that talk about textures above was simply to include it in the actual download file.. but to make it an OFFICIAL map it'll need even further polishing. Again a map this huge is going to take a lonnnng time to polish up to official standards and you might prefer to simply keep it unofficial so you have complete control over how it looks/plays. I'm already amazing you've even created a map this huge and would gladly have it in the game even as an unofficial map just so we could bust it out from time to time and explore your marvellous city. But it'd be even cooler to make this an official map, though quite a few changes would be necessary. I'll quickly go over my main points in a bit, but before I do just remember that you don't need to do any of this stuff. You map is already awesome and will get plenty of playtime even if it's not official.. but I AM trying to set a pretty strict standard for official maps and have to be nitpicky. I've even dropped official support for a few of my own maps (Cave) because they just don't seem well designed enough. These points are very critical and would probably take you forever to do, but at the very least you can consider this feedback and if you actually have the time to implement them the map might become official! Just remember that the map is already awesome and I'll gladly include it unofficially in the game (if it uses bencelot_01.png) simply because it's so damn cool! Anyway my suggestions:

1) Too many lights. The loading time is simply too long for it to be official. Large maps will always take longer to load but if you want to make a massive map you need to make some sacrifices with your lighting and optimise the lights and tiles to the max. Anyway you can fix this in a few ways:
1a) Remove the dynamic lighting. As soon as you use phase 2 lighting the map needs to calculate all the lighting TWICE. This doubles the loading time for your map and considering that your dynamic lighting is just a few flashing lights here and there it's simply not worth it. Dynamic lighitng is fun and pretty but if you want to make a map this big you need to make some sacrifices.
1b) Replacing multiple medium intensity lights with 1 high intensity light. I'm not talking about light radius but light intensity. In general 1 light with 100% brightness will look exactly the same as lights with 50% brightness but will calculate twice as fast. Just keep this in mind.
1c) Remove as many lights as you can. Obviously keep a light if it adds to the feel or whatever but if you think you can remove a light do it. For example the headlights on cars could be removed if you're going to remove the cars.
1d) Use the tile lighting properties when possible. If a tile is indoors use the tile property that ignores directional light. This saves us from having to calculate it. If the tiles are way out at the edge of the map use the tile property that receives no light at all so it doesn't need to be calculated. If a tile texture is pitch black to the same as it's not going to lighten up anyway.

2) Polish the edges of the maps. You should never be able to see the black edge of an official map. If it's night time you need to fade it to black (like I've done in Supply), if it's day time you need to make it wider than normal weapon vision (like I've done in Farm), and if its indoors you can just make it black (like I've done in Asylum). For your map I'd suggest putting up a few barriers at the ends of roads and changing the tile properties to fade it to black.

3) Fix the big open areas of nothingness. Either fill it with buildings or make it black or something, but atm it looks unfinished.

4) Remove the clutter. This map is already huge and amazingly detailed and doesn't need it. I know the feeling your going for is post apocolyptic where stuff is lying all over the place but it just looks unprofessional if you have too much of it. There's nothing wrong with a well placed box here or there, but just running around it looks like random stuff has been added just for decoration with no real purpose to it. This not only hampers gameplay (especially vehicle driving) but looks messy I think. If you want to achieve a 'messy' look for a run down city it's better to do this with non-intrusive textures than random boxes. The thing is when I run around your map now I just see these 2m tall 1x1 tile blocks all over the place and have no idea what they're suppose to be. I can figure it out if I study it hard enough and eventually realise that it's meant to be a traffic light or something, but I shouldn't have to do that. We need to accept that there are limitations to the Subvein map editor that everything must be done in 1x1m blocks and some things simply will never look good. Traffic lights in real life aren't 1x1m blocks so we simply shouldn't put them into the game. At the very least try and remove all 1x1m blocks from the map. They almost never look good. Even 1x1m wall don't look good. Maps look a lot better with big, simple shapes.. not random clutter all over the place.

5) Lose the cars. It's a great idea and very creative, but alas it just doesn't look professional enough to make it into an official map. Again this is why you need to think about if you want your map to be official or not. The cars certainly add a cool feel to the map but they're simply too blocky and remind players that they're playing in a blocky game. Again we need to work within the limitations of Subvein's engine. Subvein is limited to 1x1m tiles and for that reason you'll never see me make a map of a jungle.. it just wouldn't work. Subvein can't handle curves or fine details and so we shouldn't even try them. But Subvein does handle simple square shapes quite nicely and if you play a good map you won't even notice the blocks. This is why I don't like curves in maps, or diagonals either. Again, the traffic lights add clutter that reminds us how blocky the game is and we don't want that.

6) Widen the roads where possible. This might be a bit tricky in some areas and not the biggest deal but it'd be really great to have wide open roads to drive vehicles over.


Anyway this has taken me agges to type up so I'll leave it there for now. Remember that you don't need to do any of this stuff as the map is already great. But huge maps require huge amounts of polishing, so hopefully this has been useful :p


Ben, you might want to update this thread =P

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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Sat 28 Apr 2012, 17:45 
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1d) Use the tile lighting properties when possible. If a tile is indoors use the tile property that ignores directional light. This saves us from having to calculate it. If the tiles are way out at the edge of the map use the tile property that receives no light at all so it doesn't need to be calculated. If a tile texture is pitch black to the same as it's not going to lighten up anyway.

I never thought of that...

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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Wed 01 Jan 2014, 23:46 
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Is it a bump if it's a stickied thread? No? Okay...
Qwertybeef wrote:
Get used to the controls and the measurements, that's all I can say.
Controls:
1. P to change perspective, this is the most important thing you'll do, It makes the whole entire map flat so you can select tiles easily, However, when in this mode you can't see the height of the tiles, so if you're trying to make something as tall as something else, press P, select the tiles, Press P again to make everything 3D again, and then press the move down/up keys to make the thing taller/shorter.

2. G to change smoothing. If you're planning to make a lot of ramps/roofs, this is the key to remember, Just select an area and press G until it changes to a different color. Note: All tiles that are the same color will be smoothed out, so if you have a ramp up against a wall, and accidentally include the wall, It will create a ramp that jumps up the side of the wall.

3. +/- Keys and scroll to change the view of the camera, + I'm pretty sure resets it to default, - shows the entire map, Use the scroll to get more accurate when doing things.

4. [ and ] to drop down or bring the tile up, This is much better than fiddling with the height tool to try and get the perfect height.

5. R, X, Y, to either Rotate (R), Flip over X axis (X), Flip over Y axis (Y), This allows you to make tiles actually go the way you want them to... You don't want a corner tile pointing towards the center, you want it pointing towards the tile, y'know?

6. Tile Properties. Though not mandatory, they make the map feel better.. You don't want a snow map sounding like concrete.

7. Spawn/Extraction Zones. Pretty much every map needs them, Don't forget to place the spawns correctly and away from walls, You cannot remove a spawn zone until you have another one placed. The reason why I say away from walls is: It is possible to spawn a vehicle up against a wall and for it to glitch through to the other side, This is kinda linked to the tele bug, But still, it should be avoided.


Measurements(All are in M)
.25 is the standard amount that you can raise/lower a tile by.
.50 is the standard amount any car can go over at any speed.
.75 is the height a car can go if it has enough speed.
1.00, The standard height any mutant can walk over, cars can only go over if there is a ramp leading up to it.
1.25, The height that requires mutants to jump over, still allows shooting
1.50, denies shooting
2.25, the max height a mutant can jump
2.50, the max height a mutant can Phantom jump


This is, without a doubt, the most helpful post on the forums concerning map making. If you're going to get started, just take a single minute and read it. Also, it'd be great if someone with a lot of experience could put together some sort of actual guide to map making. I've 'consulted' (More like spam) STM and Qwerty with literally hundreds of questions concerning map making but not everyone has that luxury. I'd be happy to work on this, especially the beginner parts, but for more advanced tips and tricks I'm as lost as the next guy.

Also, something similar to Cash's old thread, would be amazing to do... At the point I'm at with my two maps, I don't know what to improve on them. I don't know what to improve on them because no one plays them. No one plays them because they aren't official. And they aren't official because I don't know what to improve on them. Basically community maps get caught in an endless cycle unless you're fortunate enough to get someone to host them AND get Bencelot to play matches on them. At this point, I don't even know if my concepts are good or bad, minor and major changes that must be made, and if they're even fun to play at all. There's only so much STM can tell me is good or needs work before we're both stumped as there has been little to no actual gameplay.

Cheers,
Nightfall.

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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Thu 02 Jan 2014, 09:45 
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Qwertybeef wrote:
Get used to the controls and the measurements, that's all I can say.
Controls:
1. P to change perspective, this is the most important thing you'll do, It makes the whole entire map flat so you can select tiles easily, However, when in this mode you can't see the height of the tiles, so if you're trying to make something as tall as something else, press P, select the tiles, Press P again to make everything 3D again, and then press the move down/up keys to make the thing taller/shorter.

2. G to change smoothing. If you're planning to make a lot of ramps/roofs, this is the key to remember, Just select an area and press G until it changes to a different color. Note: All tiles that are the same color will be smoothed out, so if you have a ramp up against a wall, and accidentally include the wall, It will create a ramp that jumps up the side of the wall.

3. +/- Keys and scroll to change the view of the camera, + I'm pretty sure resets it to default, - shows the entire map, Use the scroll to get more accurate when doing things.

4. [ and ] to drop down or bring the tile up, This is much better than fiddling with the height tool to try and get the perfect height.

5. R, X, Y, to either Rotate (R), Flip over X axis (X), Flip over Y axis (Y), This allows you to make tiles actually go the way you want them to... You don't want a corner tile pointing towards the center, you want it pointing towards the tile, y'know?

6. Tile Properties. Though not mandatory, they make the map feel better.. You don't want a snow map sounding like concrete, and you don't want directional lighting to project shadows into a room like a high pillar.

7. Spawn/Extraction Zones. Pretty much every map needs them, Don't forget to place the spawns correctly and away from walls, You cannot remove a spawn zone until you have another one placed. The reason why I say away from walls is: It is possible to spawn a vehicle up against a wall and for it to glitch through to the other side, This is kinda linked to the tele bug, But still, it should be avoided.


Measurements(All are in M) for Height
.25 is the standard amount that you can raise/lower a tile by.
.50 is the standard amount any car can go over at any speed.
.75 is the height a car can go if it has enough speed.
1.00, The standard height any mutant can walk over, cars can only go over if there is a ramp leading up to it.
1.25, The height that requires mutants to jump over, still allows shooting
2.00, denies shooting
2.25, the max height a mutant can jump
2.50, the max height a mutant can Phantom jump
3.50, denies shooting even if mutant jumps on a car and shoots
6.75, cannot see mutant who are on the opposite end of the wall.
8.25, complete block even if mutant stands on car and jumps.
9.75, begin taking fall damage.

Those in green are my edits and additions. 2.00m denies shooting, not 1.50m, since bullets originate from the character's head at 2.00m.

1 tile is 1.00m wide.

Length Tips:
  • 1m is shorter than you think it is. Ideally, walls and narrow vents should be 2m wide for aesthetic reasons.
  • Players can jump across 5m gaps at full sprinting speed. Players can walk/run across 1m wide gaps.
  • Roads for cars to drive - bare minimum to allow turning 4m. Ideally should be about 8-12m.

How to tell if a sniping spot is way too good:
These are things to look out for to tell if your sniping spot is way too good, which leads to the map being sniper heaven. It is a common problem with the recent focus on large, wide-open maps.
  • Can shoot anywhere - he can see and shoot you wherever you are. Especially blatant if area is wide open and/or covers at least half the map.
  • Has no blind spots - even if he can't hit you, he can see if you are trying to sneak up on him.
  • Hard to access - while it may be hard for the sniper to get there, its definitely EVEN harder for someone to attack the sniper. The worst example is if the sniping spot can only be accessed from the enemy base.
  • Easy to escape - when attacked, sniper can easily retreat if he were overwhelmed.
  • Invincibility - sniper can simply take a few steps back/sideways and he'll be behind cover, completely protecting him from anyone trying to shoot back at him, while he can easily pop out and kill you when you stop shooting. A good way to deal with invincibility is to make sure that the area is small and sloped so the sniper can't simply walk backwards and be protected, forcing him to either tank or escape.
Note that simply having 1 trait of this doesn't necessarily mean a badly designed sniping spot. The most important thing is to make sure that controlling that sniping spot doesn't automatically make you win.

Never put the Flag in the following locations:
  • Directly inside the team's spawn zone, or force the flag carrier to pass through the spawn zone when escaping. Players can simply wait in their spawn shields until the enemy appears before attacking, taking advantage of their 2s of invulnerability.
  • A place where cars can be parked over it. Parked cars force enemies who jump over the car to get the flag and increase their hitbox size, making for an easy kill.
  • Directly & easily accessible with cars. Players can simply buy a car and drive it straight towards the flag and only exit when they are right next to it, grab it, and then run away. It also means that the enemy can simply buy a car and drive it straight to get ahead of the flag carrier. Both are equally stupid for CTF games.
  • Specific to Extraction Truck: the most direct route(s) between the start and the end point should not have any kill tiles that the truck can drive into. Hurt tiles are fine, but no kill tiles, because players can deliberately drive the truck into the kill tiles to blow it up and force it to respawn, which can cause a really annoying stalemate.
Remember, the flag/radio carrier cannot use AA, FF, BT, Invis, Teleport or cars, but his teammates can.

Other Tips:
  • If the map is too open and wide, it will be dominated by cars and snipers. It would also be a very bad CTF map due to lack of multiple feasible routes with cover and ease of enemies simply driving a car to chase the flagger or getting the flag themselves.
  • When making secret areas, ensure that the area cannot be accessed by simply teleporting directly. When covering up with decals, remember that no matter how well you cover, the non-textured minimap will show obvious height differences that will give away the secret area. Decals may cover a mutant's body from showing up and make bots appear invisible, but it won't cover the name and numbers above the mutant's head, and he still shows up on the minimap.
  • Avoid invisible walls. If it looks like you can jump or shoot over it, it shouldn't have collision; it would feel very unnatural. Also, a key difference between normal collision and full collision is that full collision is treated as having infinite height(blackened on non-textured minimap) and casting a shadow, whereas normal collision simply creates an invisible wall of infinite height.
  • Do not simply add collision on the walls that surround the playable area. Make the whole unplayable area outside have collision, or else players can find a way to teleport out of the map.
  • If you want to stop someone from going to a certain place but you can't use collision, make the tiles' property "Hurt" or "Kill" and warn the players not to stand there.
  • Falling damage is not lethal. If you want to kill someone who has fallen off the intended playable area, make the non-playable area have kill tiles.
  • Remember to add collision to parts of the map that you do not want people to jump onto or access as well as anywhere outside the intended playable map area. Don't just put a 1-wall collision, people can just teleport right past it.
  • Collision lets you see past walls as if they were of their tile height. Full collision cannot be seen past. Use this to your advantage.
  • If you have excess playable map area, first check whether you intend to show off the background. If you don't(especially if the map is held at night), first trim off the excess playable area by reducing map size. For parts that you cannot remove, set all tiles beyond the first darkened tile(because of side texture) to have purple tile lighting(receive no lighting). This will help reduce loading time.

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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Mon 16 Jun 2014, 21:41 
Mortal
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Joined: Fri 13 Jun 2014, 00:08
Posts: 3
I´m new on this, and i would like to make a Map of cars competitions.

What things could you sugest me, for start making my new map.

Bye, CubeLord666 :)


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 Post subject: Re: General hints & guidlines for map making.
PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun 2014, 03:13 
Gangster
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Joined: Fri 28 Mar 2014, 02:30
Posts: 59
Gender: Male
Plz make race track oval with pit stop and stuff ;P


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