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 Post subject: Wolfenstein 3D in 2D!
PostPosted: Thu 14 Jan 2016, 07:13 
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Before I get too far, how legal is this?

Edit: this is just for fun. Here's my progress so far. Have fun.

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Last edited by fracaspunk1 on Fri 15 Jan 2016, 07:29, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Wolfenstein 3D in 2D!
PostPosted: Thu 14 Jan 2016, 10:49 
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I d rather say - nope. The problem is that it will be barely recognizeable AND even if you loved wolf3d, you arent gonna see anything simillar gameplay wise.

Look what STM does in another thread - he is making dd2, it looks like dd2 and it plays like dd2.

If i were you i d pick something else


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 Post subject: Re: Wolfenstein 3D in 2D!
PostPosted: Thu 14 Jan 2016, 16:54 
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Cool idea man, I'm curious to see how it works out :D Hopefully you're getting the hang of the map editor, I know it can be a bit confusing. Also another thing to consider, if you're going to use a custom texture you might want to create a smaller file as everyone will need to download it to play it. Could make a 512x512 texture called fracaspunk1.png or something like that for players to download. Whatever you do don't overwrite the bencelot_01,png file because no one else will be able to download that and it'll screw with all your other maps :p

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 Post subject: Re: Wolfenstein 3D in 2D!
PostPosted: Thu 14 Jan 2016, 17:30 
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Maximilian, my question regarding the legality was based on me using the exact textures from Wolf3d. As far as how similar gameplay will be, it won't... Just thought it would be fun to play a new game with a map everyone is familiar with. I'm not even sure which game mode would be best. I'm kinda just using this as a way to figure out the editor.

Bencelot, Yeah that png set is a copy of yours... I just pasted the W3D parts over it and saved it as fracaspunk1_w3d.png. I should make it smaller though.


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 Post subject: Re: Wolfenstein 3D in 2D!
PostPosted: Thu 14 Jan 2016, 18:11 
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fracaspunk1 wrote:
Just thought it would be fun to play a new game with a map everyone is familiar with. I'm not even sure which game mode would be best. I'm kinda just using this as a way to figure out the editor.

Given Wolf3D's format, the only truly viable game mode would be Stealth, but even then as you and Max have said, it'd feel too different from the real thing, if only because its simply not possible to make secrets work like before, lack of doors and the gunplay is too radically different.

For learning purposes, its actually not necessarily the best way since a faithful reproduction demands:
A) Perfectly uniform lighting. All you have to do is set directional lighting with 1.00 ambience and 1.00 intensity. And then for nonplayable map area just set the tile lighting to purple.
B) Only two heights/collision types to work with. Only a wall with full collision and a normal floor. Can't go wrong at all, can't learn about making stairs or using slopes since everything is perfectly square.
C) Largely just stacking pre-made bricks with their textures properly done, with very minimal need for decals or models or using particle effects at all.
D) Wolf3D simply isn't meant for cars, which is quite a big part of MF's gameplay.

All that said, this is your first map afterall and many of us started from what appears to be a fun concept to do. It does help you get used to the map editor and good thing this is a simple map too; its really discouraging when you've made a map only to find out you've used the wrong scale the entire time for instance. Once its done can always make a backup and then fool around with settings to see how it'd turn out, then tackle on greater projects.

Anyway, if you can, try and lump together Level 9 where you fight the dual minigun boss, it'd be a great way to end the map in Stealth! =D

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 Post subject: Re: Wolfenstein 3D in 2D!
PostPosted: Thu 14 Jan 2016, 19:10 
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On the topic of scale new map makers ALWAYS make things too small. I think the main reason for this is that while the map editor says each tile is 1x1m, it really behaves more like 0.5x0.5m when mapped to reality or other games. Thinking of each tile as 0.5m long is a much better rule of thumb for map makers. The reason why the scale is off is because:

1) Players in MF are graphically about 1.5 tiles wide, when in reality an actual human viewed from a top-down point of view is closer to 0.75m wide.
2) Players in MF run at 12 tiles per second, which is totally unrealistic if that translates to 12 m/s. Not even Usain Bolt can reach this speed. Most humans would run closer to half this speed and most games use a more realistic movement speed.

So you might take a map from CS and get the actual measurements from the map. The measurements might say a certain stretch of road is 5m x 20m long. But if you're putting this into MF and want the gameplay to feel the same you should really go 10 tiles x 40 tiles. Why? Because players in MF run twice as fast as real humans and they are twice as wide as well. So to keep things effectively playing the same you have to double everything up :)

Plus the game just plays better when things are bigger, largely because we do have such a fast movement speed and such large player hitboxes. Bigger and wider maps let you use vehicles, long ranged weapons, skills, etc etc. It's just better to be bigger :)

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 Post subject: Re: Wolfenstein 3D in 2D!
PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan 2016, 08:22 
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Thank you for the tips, guys. I'm getting the hang of it. I doubled the scale of the original map and it feels right to me. Stealth mode is so fun to design! I've uploaded my progress and png, so check it out. I'm sure I could use some criticism...

FYI I've figured out what to do with the doors. I make wide double sided decals. They look great! Too bad they don't open haha.

Is there a way to hide guards until they are in view?


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 Post subject: Re: Wolfenstein 3D in 2D!
PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan 2016, 08:39 
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fracaspunk1 wrote:
Is there a way to hide guards until they are in view?

Make sure your walls are full collision (Press C when they're selected and make sure it's a dark blue, this will prevent sight, bullets, and players from walking through it), and then make sure that the guards don't have the "Always Show" box checked.

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 Post subject: Re: Wolfenstein 3D in 2D!
PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan 2016, 09:43 
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^ What Qwerty said.
There's 2 types of full collision though. Green is just collision but bullets and sight still pass through. Dark blue is full collision #1 - everything will not pass even light - one of the implications is that the top of the wall would look covered in shadow. Sea blue/green is full collision #2 - works like the first one except light will hit it as though it were a normal wall. Find out which one looks better for your map.

EDIT:
That's odd, I can't open up Wolfenstein2D at all. It doesn't show up on map viewer, but it shows up on my maplist albeit unplayable.
edi2: Nvm, I forgot to download the texture.

Gave the first test version a try. A few things:
* Stealth spawn should not overlap with the first bomb. Put the first bomb slightly infront. I mentioned this is to allow players who joined late to not be forced to wait until someone reaches the next checkpoint.
* The guards shouldn't be alerted by footsteps, but they should be able to warn nearby guards (use Alert Range) if they spot an enemy, and make all guards of the same type share a text zone that makes them say something when they are alerted. For the stronger enemies, give them +100hp so that they'd spawn with a different helmet type to help differentiate them.
* The guards need a firing delay and inaccuracy value. They shoot way too fast with their pistol and are way too accurate.
* One idea I have to imitate the Wolf3D weapon system: AFTER the section where you get the MP5, all the guards will have MP5s, but only the SS guys will utilize its high firing rate while the normal guards just drop the standard 8 ammo and shoot very slowly. This is because any Wolf3D player will stick to the machine gun the moment he gets it for all situations, and switch to the minigun only in heavily infested areas. The Nailgun would then work as the alternative to the Chaingun, while the boss Hans gets the actual Minigun.

Remember to set the 1st bomb to Test Start... don't want speedrun records to be available when the map is incomplete.

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 Post subject: Re: Wolfenstein 3D in 2D!
PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan 2016, 17:38 
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Great tips, STM. I figured out collision. The doors look cool, but it's kind of weird to be able to see/walk/shoot through them. I understand that door functionality just isn't programmed into the game, so I'm trying to work with what I have. If there was a way to have collision restrict light and bullets, but still allow player/enemies to pass, that would be great. I moved bomb 0. I removed "hear footsteps" and made the guards weaker, by setting a fire delay to 1 sec and a 10 degree accuracy. It's looking much cooler.

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 Post subject: Re: Wolfenstein 3D in 2D!
PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan 2016, 17:53 
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fracaspunk1 wrote:
If there was a way to have collision restrict light and bullets, but still allow player/enemies to pass, that would be great.

The closest thing you can do is to just make the door literally a 2m tall tile. Guards won't be able to see past it unless alerted, light shouldn't pass if it isn't placed high above, you won't be able to shoot or go past it unless you jump.

(also wow, based on the screenshot everything is going to be really dark)

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 Post subject: Re: Wolfenstein 3D in 2D!
PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan 2016, 18:11 
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STM1993 wrote:
The closest thing you can do is to just make the door literally a 2m tall tile. Guards won't be able to see past it unless alerted, light shouldn't pass if it isn't placed high above, you won't be able to shoot or go past it unless you jump.

Does a transparent tile exist?

STM1993 wrote:
(also wow, based on the screenshot everything is going to be really dark)

Yes. I agree. I plan on brightening it up... Just now too much.


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 Post subject: Re: Wolfenstein 3D in 2D!
PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan 2016, 18:14 
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fracaspunk1 wrote:
Does a transparent tile exist?

Nope, unfortunately. Those "transparent" things on the texture set, if used on a tile, will just show up as white instead. You'll have to make the door either take up 2 tiles or 1 tile instead of halfway between. Would be a really neat tile to have though for making special collisions...

fracaspunk1 wrote:
Yes. I agree. I plan on brightening it up... Just now too much.

Use Directional Lighting to light up the entire map to an acceptable base amount (use the ambience value to control how dark the shadows will be, 1.00 for no shadows at all), then add your own point lighting as needed. Generally speaking as long as the addition of 2 lightings don't exceed 1.00 intensity, you should be fine. Note the direction and distance of the arrow from the left corner of the map does influence how directional lighting works.

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 Post subject: Re: Wolfenstein 3D in 2D!
PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan 2016, 18:27 
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I'll add extra collision properties at some point. The whole system needs a rework to be honest.

And also that map is cray cray dark. Could definitely benefit with more light. I understand that darkness gives a map a good theme, but it still needs to be playable, and if it's too dark players will simply increase the brightness slider in the game anyway. Best bet is to use lots of point lights with not much ambient lighting, this way you'll still get dark shadows which gives a dark gloomy atmosphere, but it's still easy to see stuff :P Check out Downtown in stealth mode for an example maybe. It's very clearly night time due to the blue ambient shadows, but bright enough to see.

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